No. 100 on September 1, 2009. Its restoration was completed.
The first trip out of the Seashore Trolley Museum's Town
House Restoration Shop to check clearances, brakes, etc.,
through switches and around the visitor center loop.
The operator is Ed Dooks (interviewer of this oral history post).
Photo by Phil Morse
Click Here: for the post on ASL-100 being in the National Register of Historic Places Click Here: for the post on ASL-100 as a Loconia Car Company product
Evening Express - 10-16-1924
DOOKS: Well, anyways, these guys went down to, apparently, Everett Greenleaf, and
Greenleaf said, “Yes, that would be a nice place to have the cars but the problem was that
there would be a lot of vandalism on the cars.”
Click Here: for Ed Dooks' 1987 interview (a video) with Theodore Santarelli (Leader of the Founders of the Seashore Trolley Museum)
JACKSON: Yes.
DOOKS: The kids would break in there all the time?
JACKSON: Yes.
Page 9
DOOKS: And, apparently, he suggested that they go see George Hill and George Hill
said, “Why don’t you go talk to Everett Clough, who owned a piece of property.
Does that sound like the right scenario?[ED-In asking the question, I got the names reversed. Greenleaf told Ted Santerelli to
go see Everett Clough, who sent Ted to George Hill, who owned the property.]
JACKSON: Everett Clough?
DOOKS: He lived at the end of Log Cabin Road. He owned some of the property (that)...
the Museum...owns...now.
JACKSON: Oh, Everett, didn’t Everett live right opposite your Trolley Museum in that
house? Oh, sure, he used to drive a Standard Oil truck. He had horses.
DOOKS: Can you tell me anything about Everett?
JACKSON: No. I never knew too much about him. I knew him.
DOOKS: Wait a minute. That’s where we got a little bit confused. Ted Santarelli called
him Everett Clough. Apparently, his name was Fred Clough.
[ED - After this interview I interviewed Carl Clough who confirmed Ted intended to see
his brother, Everett, but wound up talking to his father Fred.]
JACKSON: Fred Clough, yes. Now, he was a boy that lived over there now.
DOOKS: Carl.
JACKSON: Carl?
DOOKS: Right.
JACKSON: And he had another boy that passed on here a few years ago.
DOOKS: Oh, Walter?
JACKSON: Walter, right.
DOOKS: So, this was Fred Clough and he owned a truck that hauled for Standard Oil.
Biddeford-Saco Journal 5-6-1946
JACKSON: He did.
DOOKS: Like gasoline and that type of stuff.
JACKSON: He didn’t own it, he worked for...... He had the horses and he hauled
gasoline around, here.
Pages 10
DOOKS: Now, it wasn’t one of his trucks that got involved in your accident?
JACKSON: Oh, no. This was way (over) in South Portland.
DOOKS: Now we have a curve on our main line, called Meserves Crossing.
Apparently, the Meserves family owned the property at that time and do you remember
them?
JACKSON: Yes, Elmer Meserves. I remember him. I can’t remember where Meserves
Crossing was.
DOOKS: Well, it’s something we’ve named it. There was no crossing there. We named
it Meserves Crossing. There’s a little sign there on this particular curve.
COTT: There was a crossing there.
Biddeford-Saco Journal 7-6-1965
These two newspaper clippings clarify that
Abraham Meserve was the owner of the "crossing."
Portland Press Herald - 7-8-1965
DOOKS: Oh, there was a crossing there?
COTT: The road’s still there.
DOOKS: The road’s still there?
COTT: Because the pasture was in that low land and the house was back up to what’s
now the woods.
JACKSON: Oh, there was a lot of little stops. Most of us crossed at Procter Road or
Harris’ Crossing.
DOOKS: Do you remember anything about the Meserves people, the Meserves family?
JACKSON: I don’t, not any more than I know Elmer Meserve. Now, whether he’d be
one of them or not, I don’t know. He could be.
DOOKS: One of the things I’ve heard about Meserves Crossing is the fact that the
Atlantic Shore Line would allow the Meserves people, (in liu for) the right to go across their land,
would allow them free passage forever and ever and free fares on the line, and also haul
their milk down to Kennebunk or something like that. Was that a typical custom at that
time? Do you know if that ever happens.?
JACKSON: I never heard about it if it did, no. I don’t recall ever hearing anything about it.
DOOKS: You don’t know if that was a practice that the rail line used to do for people?
Page 11
JACKSON: I don’t know but I should almost think it would be, but I wouldn’t know for
sure about it.
DOOKS: Well, I’ve about run out of things to think about. Do you have any other
anecdotes you can relate to us? Is there anything more you can tell us?
JACKSON: Well. no, I can’t. I’ve told you about all I can think of about it.
COTT: Warren Seawood said that when he was a conductor, there was a restaurant
in Ogunquit and two girls lived someplace up towards Kennebunk, and their mother had
them come home together on the last car. He dated one of them and finally married her.
JACKSON: Yes.
COTT: That was his wife.
JACKSON: Yes, I never knew Warren’s wife very well, but I knew Warren so well. I
worked with him so many days. Well, Warren, would be right up there, now, wouldn’t he.
COTT: Oh, yes, close to 90.
JACKSON: Warren had a brother, Ray, down here at the Port. He never worked on the cars.
DOOKS: So, if you could characterize the Atlantic Shore Line Railway, how would you
describe the whole operation?
JACKSON: Well, when I went to work there, it was a big thing. It was a grand thing.
But, as years passed by, cars came in, tourists came in and people didn’t ride in the
cars. They just had to go out of business. But I can remember when those cars were
crowded. Those open cars would be packed.
DOOKS: Taking people from where to where?
JACKSON: Well, there used to be a lot of people that would get on at Kennebunkport.
They would go to the Town House and they worked in Goodall’s Mills up in Kennebunk.
And then a lot of people in West Kennebunk, who rode the trolleys to come down to
work. Of course, in Kennebunk, there was a shoe shop, Goodall’s Mills, Leatheroid, the
Counter Works. There were a lot of people working in Kennebunk in them days and they
all rode the street cars. That’s all gone back.
From Storer Street in Kennebunk, looking across Main Street
to Water Street where several of the mills that Mr. Jackson mentions,
were located. Trolley tracks are visible. O. R. Cummings Collection
at the Seashore Trolley Museum 2009_2_42_030
Biddeford-Saco Journal 2-9-1929
Evening Express 1-30-1932
Biddeford-Saco Journal 5-4-2022
Evening Express 6-30-1927
Evening Express 5-20-1926
Biddeford-Saco journal 2-9-1931
Journal Tribune 7-28-1932
DOOKS: You mentioned picking up coal down at Cape Porpoise. Where did that coal go?
Page 12
JACKSON: Well, now, when I went there to work, they were just about through hauling
coal. There was a lot of it in the pocket but I couldn’t tell you exactly where they went
with it. They never used the coal pocket after I went there to work.
The coal pocket in Kennebunkport, near the Town House terminal.
This photo is from a car traveling from Cape Porpoise, towards
the Town House terminal. This was filled after the coal storage
facilities in Sanford were full. The coal pocket was dismantled in
the early 1920s and the materials were used to build the new
carbarn in Sanford in 1924. c 1910 O. R. Cummings Collection at
the Seashore Trolley Museum 2009_2_42_153
COTT: Warren said they used to take it to Sanford.
JACKSON: I think most of it did go to Sanford to the mills up there. Of course, that
gave them a lot of business, but that kind of died out after I went there to work They
hauled very little. The only thing I had to do about the coal pocket was to go over and
help put out fires. Then, eventually, they tore it down.
DOOKS: So, you went to work for them at age 16, and you’re 84 years old now. So
with simple arithmetic, we can figure out what year that was, and you worked for them
for 12 years.
JACKSON: I think I worked for them for about 12 years, yes. As I say, I worked for the
Beaver Valley Traction Company out in Wellsville for a year-and-a-half but I came back
and went to work there again. I was on a leave of absence.
DOOKS: How come you took a leave of absence to go out there?
JACKSON: Well, I had a brother who worked on the railroad out there and I went to see
him, and my wife was working in the Allegheny Valley Hospital, so I knew her here, and
we kind of contacted out there and I thought that was a chance to contact her again. So, I
went out there and that’s what happened.
DOOKS: So, after you got married, then you came back home again?
JACKSON: Yes. I was married in Cumberland, West Virginia. Then I came back here
and went to work on the street railway again until it closed.
DOOKS: And that was in 1927?
JACKSON: I think it was.
DOOKS: Because the last car that ran over our main line, ran on September 15, 1927.
JACKSON: I almost think that Wilbur Wiles ran that. Wilbur was the oldest conductor
on the railroad, motorman/conductor, and he was the last man that I know of to work
on the railroad at this end. I think they ran the loop up Sanford, didn’t they for a while?
Wilbur Wildes and Walter Mitchell
Biddeford-Saco Journal 1-21-1919
COTT: Yes.
JACKSON: Then, they changed it from Atlantic Shore to the York Utility Company, but
I can’t tell you what year that was. I was working there.
Page 13
DOOKS: That was 1917, I think. I’d have to look it up. I’ve got it in my notes.
JACKSON: Well, they changed it over to the York Utility Company and it stayed like
that. Then they put the buses to the Cape and the Port. I guess Burse (?Bruce) Brown ran one of
them. That’s when the cars started dwindling out when they put on the old real buses
there, but I think they did run the buses around the loop up Sanford for quite a while after
this end closed up.
DOOKS: You mean the trolley cars?
JACKSON: Yes, and they might possibly be running them now. I don’t know whether
they run them up there now or not. Do you know?
COTT: No buses.
JACKSON: No? Well, then, it’s all gone.
COTT: Do you ever remember a snow plow coming off the track in Kennebunk? A lady
asked me some years ago if the Museum has a history of the Trolley Museum because
her mother met her husband when a snow plow came off and went up into their yard
and one of the men on it eventually married her mother.
JACKSON: I don’t remember, but when I went to work, they had the old steam plant at
the landing. Do you remember that?
COTT: I know where that is.
JACKSON: Do you know where Durrell’s Bridge is?
COTT: Yes.
JACKSON: Well, the steam plant sat right in there. John Boston ran it.
The Durrell's Bridge Road for electric railway operation is on the right.
The power station on the hill on the right, on the Arundel side of
Kennebunk River. A few of the remnants of the wooden posts that held up
the bridge were visible in the river for decades. There may still be a couple
that are visible on the banks of the river. O. R. Cummings Collection
at the Seashore Trolley Museum 2009_2_42_052
COTT: But you don’t see any evidence of it.
JACKSON: No. They didn’t run that but very little, just in a pinch because the flywheel
had a warp in it and it bounced something wicked when it went over. Then, they did
away with that and tore that down. They had a siding there.
COTT: Did the dam at the Old Falls supply any electricity?
JACKSON: Yes, and I think they shift over to the new dam. Didn’t they? I think they
did.
Old Falls Hydro Electric Power Plant at Estes Damc 1907
Still exists today and supplies electricity.
O. R. Cummings Collection
at the Seashore Trolley Museum 2009_2_5_090
Page 14
COTT: There was supposed to have been a park at Old Falls.
JACKSON: There was a dance hall at Old Falls. That went out just before I went there
to work.
(In the early years, it was known as Fluellen Park. Later it became known as Old Falls Park)
The Biddeford-Saco Journal 6-28-190
COTT: Do you remember the one down at the fort (port)? The big pavilion there?
JACKSON: Yes.
DOOKS: They called it the Casino, didn’t they?
The Cape Porpoise trestle with the coal-loading mechanism.
The ASLRwy Casino is on the right. Postcard
O. R. Cummings Collection 2009_2_42_098
JACKSON: Yes.
DOOKS: Murray, why don’t you slide up to the end of the couch here, so that you’re a
little bit closer to the microphone. I don’t know, if you could reminisce a bit like that,
might jog a few memories.
COTT: They tell a story that you could buy a ticket for ninety cents in Sanford, ride to
the Casino, to Port, have a shore dinner, with either a choice of chicken or lobster, and
it’s on the timetable, and then dance to a name band and then ride home at night, all for
ninety cents.
JACKSON: That could be so. I don’t know about that.
COTT: You didn’t do it, huh.
JACKSON: No.
JACKSON: I’d like to tell you, up here to Greenleaf’s. You say you’ve been there?
COTT: Yes.
JACKSON: Well, if you go out there again, you walk way out, I think 104 is still out
there.
COTT: Is that right?
JACKSON: I think it is. If I’m, up around there, I’ll walk out and look, but I think it is.
COTT: Well, I live right around the corner on Ridgewood Circle.
JACKSON: Up here?
COTT: Yes.
Page 15
JACKSON: Oh, you do? Well, Evan Foster did, he took everything down there.
We had a lot of those, you know. If a car came off the iron, they straddle the rail, you’d
put them on, heavier than the duce.
COTT: Yes.
JACKSON: There were a lot of them we had. I think he had them all up there. He
probably junked them.
COTT: Well, just recently, up in front of the, what used to be the Esso Station, Jim’s
Service Center, they were doing some road work out in front and they dug up some rails.
They were going to put a water line across the road and when they got down below the
pavement, they ran into rails and ties.
JACKSON: It used to run right down in front of Jim’s Service Station. Right close to
the..., all the way.
COTT: Right.
JACKSON: I remember the trees hung over the road there and I used to go up and get
the mill help mornings and coming back, I picked up all the help that worked in the barn.
If I was working nights., I picked up the day help, and I remember coming down by
Bibber’s (A funeral home at Summer Street and Sea Road owned by the Bibber family),
you know, there, and the rails would be wet. By golly, I’m telling you you did some
sliding if you didn’t watch it coming down there.
DOOKS: I want to go back to something you said earlier, quite a bit earlier, about
trolleys and the lightning. Did they attract lightning and what would happen?
JACKSON: Well, you used to see it coming on the wire and it would come through the
car and it would burn out the wiring and stuff.
DOOKS: So. it would strike the pole somewhere and just travel along the wire.
JACKSON: Well, you could see it coming and it would come down the trolley pole and
right in and burn out the wire.
COTT: It was looking for a ground.
DOOKS: So, you wouldn’t have time to stop the car and pull the pole.
JACKSON: Oh, no.
DOOKS: It was real quick.
Page 16
JACKSON: You know, this stuff is so long ago that I, it’s hard for me to remember it
exactly.
DOOKS: Well, it’s got to be what, 60 years.
JACKSON: yes.
INTERVIEW END...the interview restarted on September 3, 1988
DOOKS: Okay, it’s September 3rd today (1988) and we’re back talking with Walter
Jackson here. There were a few questions as a result of my listening to the tape that I
came up with. You said you were a messenger on the freight express.
JACKSON: On the express.
DOOKS: What did a messenger do?
JACKSON: Well, about all we did was load the express and haul it. That’s all. We
used to leave the Town House at about five in the morning and we’d go to Portland, load
up in Portland, and come back to Sanford, then back to the Town House. We hauled all
kinds of freight, Hannerford’s goods, and the Portland Rendering Company goods. We hauled
everything in general, everything from a wheelbarrow to. The car was always loaded.
In fact, they had three of those express cars. I was on the early one and then they had one
that stopped at Dunston and they stopped at Biddeford, Kennebunk, West Kennebunk.
They didn’t go out until later than we did and then they had to put another one on it part-
time as years went on and then, of course, when the trucks got out around, they did away
with all those three cars.
DOOKS: Now, those three cars, you mentioned three cars, were they actual physical
cars or trains, whole trains?
JACKSON: No. they were just one car.
DOOKS: One car.
JACKSON: One car, 104, 106 and 105. I worked with Bob Fisk for quite a while and
then I worked with Bob Clark for quite a while on it.
DOOKS: Now, these three cars, how many runs during the day would they make, just
one run?
JACKSON: Just one run. But, it took us from about five in the morning until we’d get
back about half-past-two in the afternoon.
Page 17
DOOKS: Now, I talked to Margaret Pearson, who’s the daughter of George Hill, and she
was telling me that they got freight. They got hay from their farm in Clinton. It would
come down to Kennebunk and put on the express and be dropped off at, what did she call
it, Harris Crossing, was it?
JACKSON: Harris’ Crossing. That’s where your Trolley Museum is now.
DOOKS: What was the name of the crossing again?
JACKSON: Harris’ Crossing.
DOOKS: Harris’ Crossing. Okay. Do you remember carrying hay for her?
JACKSON: No, the other two cars could have, you know.
DOOKS: Now, when you say you were a messenger on a car, were you assigned to one
car and there were two other men assigned to the other two cars on the train.
JACKSON: Yes. I was just on that one car with one man, two of us on a car.
DOOKS: Now, how big were these cars? What was the length of them?
JACKSON: Oh they were about the length of a big passenger car. They held a lot and
we used to haul an awful lot of mill A warps. They used them in the cotton mills in
Sanford. We always had a half-carload of those.
DOOKS: Now, what was a warp?
JACKSON: Well, to tell you the truth, I think it was the twine before it was woven into
cloth. I wouldn’t say for sure about that but I think that was on them.
DOOKS: So, it was essentially spools of thread, or spools of yarn, or something like
that?
JACKSON: Yes, I think that’s what it was.
DOOKS: Okay, so you worked as an express agent and you worked on a car with another
man. The car was made up of three cars, so there would be six men on this train.
JACKSON: No, there was just one car.
DOOKS: Oh, there was just one car.
Page 18
JACKSON: Yes. There were three different cars, that went at different times. We went
at four, and one went at eight and the other one went sometime at noontime or something
like that.
DOOKS: Okay, so you were a messenger and the other fellow was the motorman.
JACKSON: Yes, on that, on the express.
DOOKS: So, it looked probably like what we would call a railroad baggage car.
JACKSON: Just about, yes. It would be about the same thing. In fact, I worked all over
the railroad and everything. I started out washing cars and I worked on almost everything
there was.
DOOKS: The other day, you were talking about the horses that you had the accident
with. Was it a gasoline truck?
JACKSON: Down at Rigby.
DOOKS: You said the horses strung up on the pole.
JACKSON: One of them was, yes.
DOOKS: What does stringing them up on a pole mean?
JACKSON: The tank was upside down, and the front wheel, the pole with the horses
hooked right up in the air standing right up straight. The pole was, and one of them was
still hooked up to it. We had to get him down off of it.
DOOKS: So, the horse somehow became entangled with the trolley pole itself, or the
pole of the wagon?
JACKSON: The pole of the wagon, and one of them was right underneath the car.
DOOKS: That was the trolley car he was under?
JACKSON: Yes. So when you got out, you had to practically step on him to get onto
the ground.
DOOKS: Now, the pole on the wagon was the pole that the horses were hitched to the
wagon. The two poles that come out (from the wagon).
JACKSON: Right up just like that on the pole and the other one had broke loose and
was underneath. Probably, that was the right one, near the car, that was underneath.
Page 19
DOOKS: I see. Now, you also talked about a coal pocket. Now, I had envisioned a coal
pocket similar to what a railroad has, where the train would go underneath this thing and
they dumped coal down into it. Was that what they had down there?
JACKSON: That was where they stored coal.
DOOKS: What did it look like?
Another view of the coal pocket near Town House Terminal.
The track to the left of the pocket track connected to the Town House.
The track to the right of the pocket track led to the "boneyard," seen
on the right of the photo. Cars that were in accidents, or were to be scrapped.
O. R. Cummings Collection 2009_2_7_041
JACKSON: It was just a monstrous big building, open sides and it was as long as,
almost from here over to these woods and it was full of coal. They stored coal in it that
they hauled from the Cape and then they delivered it to Sanford Mills, but when I went
there to work, that was just about over. They had just about given up hauling, but there was a
lot of coal there because it would catch fire every (day)..... I suppose the heat from the gas in
it, the soft coal.
DOOKS: So, you're indicating by the distance to the woods, we would guesstimate about
500 feet or so.
JACKSON: I think the pocket was that long.
(END OF CASSETTE 4, SIDE 1)
DOOKS: Okay, the tape ran out on the other side while we were talking about the coal
pocket, so you indicated that the coal pocket was about 500 feet long.
JACKSON: I think it was all that. It must have been.
DOOKS: And it was about how wide, 50 foot, 100 foot?
JACKSON: Probably 100 feet. I should think a 100-feet, yes.
DOOKS: And did it have compartments throughout the whole building?
JACKSON: Yes, it did. It had different compartments.
DOOKS: So, how would this coal pocket be loaded? Obviously, the coal came in on the
boat. How did they off-load it from the boat?
JACKSON: Well, I couldn’t tell you that, because you see, they did very little of that
after I went there to work. In fact, I don’t remember seeing them do hardly any of it. I
never knew them to haul much coal, not while I was there.
DOOKS: Another question that we were getting into - - George Hill raised horses.
JACKSON: Yes.
Page 20
DOOKS: And you were telling me about that. Could you repeat that since we ran out of
tape on that other side?
JACKSON: Yes. He raced everywhere. He had some good horses and he raced on the
beaches, he raced these short races, he raced at the Kennebunk track. I think he was
always in the horse racing business. George was a nice man. He was a pleasant man, and
then Phil Pearson married Mrs. Pearson, Margaret Pearson (George Hill’s daughter), and
he always had horses and raced horses.
The Lake Lake Speedway was a horse race track
in Kennebunkport. Biddeford-Saco Journal 3-9-1923
Biddeford-Saco Journal 2-28-1923
Biddeford-Saco Journal 3-1-1923
DOOKS: They had a milk farm, you said.
JACKSON: They had a milk farm and they had mostly Jersey cows and he ran a milk
route down and around Kennebunkport. Horse and covered milk wagon and then as years
went on, Phil Pearson took it over and, of course, Phil had a truck. He delivered in a
truck.
DOOKS: Now, Margaret was telling me that she remembered in the wintertime, when
the only plow operating was the trolley plow, and she was telling me that she could
remember taking her pung out with her horses and running the milk down to
Kennebunkport and she’d have to time her run between trolley cars. Did people do that a
lot in those days?
JACKSON: They did. We’d get a place broke out and they’d get in and fill it in, you
know. Driving in it, but you couldn’t do anything about it. Couldn't help it.
DOOKS: So, what would happen when a trolley came along with one of those places all
filled in again?
JACKSON: They had scrappers. The trolleys all had scrapers you could drop down, one
on each front wheel, on each set of trucks. You could drop them down and they scraped
the rail ahead of you if there wasn’t too much snow. Of course, if you had a lot of
snow, they were no good, but for just a small amount, they would scrape the rail ahead
of you.
Snow Scraper that Walter mentions
DOOKS: Now, what would happen if you were driving a trolley car along the trolley
that night and you ran into somebody coming down the tracks with either a horsedrawn
vehicle or did you have any automobiles doing it?
JACKSON: Well, there’s quite a lot of cars done it, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a
horse and sleigh on it anywhere, but the cars would do it, to beat the duce, especially over
to Biddeford.
DOOKS: Now, what would happen when a trolley encountered a car? Let’s say the
trolley’s coming south and the car’s coming north. Now what?
Page 21
JACKSON: They had to get off the track and let you go. Lots of times they’d have an
argument or something, but they always got off. Of course, the streets would be plugged
up. They had nowhere else to go.
DOOKS: Now, what would happen to a car? He’s obviously got snow banks on both
sides of him. What would he have to do, drive into the snow bank?
JACKSON: Yes. He’d have to get out if they were driving on the track because the
plow would plow the snow out sideways.
DOOKS: That meant, usually the car would get stuck. Yes?
JACKSON: Yes, as a rule. They wouldn’t go in very little snow, electric cars won’t.
DOOKS: So, the automobile would be stuck in the snow bank. Would it stay there
stuck all day?
JACKSON: No, they’d generally get right out. They were mostly delivery trucks and
stuff like that and, you know, delivering, they couldn’t get in the street and they’d get in
while you plowed out ordinarily.
DOOKS: You mentioned earlier that you were sent out on runs from the barns. What
did you do on those runs? You’d be working in the barn and they’d come along and we
need you out on a run? What did you do?
JACKSON: Well, they’d call you to go, the same as when I was working in the
powerhouse, there’s two of us. In the morning, I’d have to take a car and go to the Port and
pick up the motorman that worked that early run, and then I’d have to, I used to go to
Thing’s Crossing and pick up a mill help and bring him down to Kennebunk to Goodall’s
Mills. There were a lot of people in West Kennebunk that worked in the mills and they
always sent a car up early in the morning to pick them up. When I was working nights,
that’s what I did was them.
DOOKS: So, you were the motorman on the car?
JACKSON: Yes.
DOOKS: So, you were the motorman and you’d have to collect the fares and all that
stuff?
JACKSON: Well, they all had a ticket you punched. It was a pass that they paid for on a
weekly base. Oh, you’d pick up a few that had fares.
The back cover of the January 1, 1966, O. R. Cummings
publication, Atlantic Shore Trolleys.
DOOKS: What was income like in those days? How much did you make an hour or
how much did you make in a week or do you remember those figures at all?
JACKSON: I think when I first went there to work, I got eighteen dollars a week.
That’s what I got, eighteen dollars a week. And then I went to work in the pit, and they
hired another boy to take my job, and I went to work in the pit changing motors on cars
and compressors, CP-21 compressors and stuff, and I think they raised my pay to twenty-
two dollars, and then, when I worked on the express, I got thirty-five dollars a week on there.
DOOKS: And that was considered good money at the time?
JACKSON: It was at that time. It was good money. Eighteen dollars was good money
when I was a kid.
DOOKS: Well, I think I’ve run out of questions. Did you think of anything else in the
past couple of days that you might want to add?
JACKSON: No, I can’t..... I can remember one time when I was on the express, this
happened. Bob Cluff and I, and Bob and I were always fooling (around).
DOOKS: Was Bob Cluff related to Fred Clough?
JACKSON: No, they were different people altogether.
DOOKS: Oh, they pronounce it differently. That’s right. That’s right. I know a friend
who’s Clough, C-L-O-U-G-H and that’s the way he pronounces his name and they spell
the name the same way and pronounce it Clough. (Clow)
JACKSON: I remember once we came from Portland one morning, Bob Cluff and I, and
as I say, I was riding the front end with him. We were always fooling (around). He’s a good hand
to fool, and I guess probably I was. We got our order from Biddeford to cross 202 at the
Proctor Road and the regular at Harris’s Crossing and report at the Town House before we
moved again up there. Well, we crossed 202 at Proctor Road, of course, it is a straight line
right through to Harris’s, well, we started scuffling in the vestibule when the car was
going right along, well, when we got to Harris’ Crossing, we were wrestling and fooling in
Page 27
the front of the car, and we just left Harris' and I said to Bob, “God, we were supposed
to cross the regular at Harris’ weren’t we?”
“Oh, Jesus yes,” he said. Well, by that time, You know there is that grade going up, we
just got to the top of that grade and we could see the regular just leaving the Town House.
Now we hustled back some quick, I’ll tell ya. We got into the crossing.
DOOKS: Did you have to change the poles or back-pole it?
JACKSON: Back-poled it. Steve Ward was the motorman. If it had been anybody beside
Steve, he could see us, he saw us because the express was up high, you know, the roof, but
he never talked about it. But if it had been some of the fellows that had been
motorman, we’d never heard the end of it and we’d been in trouble, you know. We got
by with it because Steve was the motorman. That very seldom happens, you know, that’s
just a......... (long reflective pause) I’d like to live it all over again.
DOOKS: It sounds like it was a fun time.
JACKSON: It was because you did everything. You know, I worked all over the
railroad, in the power plant, in the pit, pressing wheels, and everything else.
(TAPE STOPPED)
DOOKS: Okay, one little story you told me after we stopped the tape there for a moment
was about fixing the wheel on the trolley line. Do you want to tell that story again?
JACKSON: Oh, they called up one night that there was a car coming from Biddeford
that had the trolley wheel gone and they wanted me to either put out a new car or fix that
trolley wheel. It was up to me to do either one I wanted. So, I thought it would be easier
to fix the trolley wheel. So, I took the lantern and screwdriver and pliers and a new
trolley wheel and I went up and when the car came in, I went up on the roof;
to fix it, you had to leave one trolley on, to keep the compressor going to keep
your air pumped up. If you didn’t, the car would run off on you. And so, I couldn’t see
very good the way I had my lantern, so I went to move my lantern so I could see better
and the old stove, the pipe went up through the roof and there’s a piece of tin around the
roof, and around the stove pipe, and then tacked down. So, I set the lantern over, and I set
it right on the tin, that steel lantern right on that tin. Gee, I got an awful belt, so, after that,
I watched pretty much where I put my lantern, now I’ll tell you.
DOOKS: So. you were holding onto the pole at the time you put the lantern down?
JACKSON: Yes, I had the pole between my legs.
Page 28
DOOKS: That woke you up fast, huh?
JACKSON: Oh, yes.
DOOKS: We were talking about the time sequence. You mentioned you went onto the
buses afterwards and the line that we run on was abandoned in September of 1927 and
you left the York Utilities in 1932. So, from 1927 to 1932, what did you do?
JACKSON: I’m trying to figure it out here. I used to take Burse Brown home nights.
They run the cars, they run electric cars after they put the buses on the Cape and the Port,
on the main lines because I was working nights then and I was working on the buses,
repairing buses and stuff like that and I worked in the barn nights, running the plant.
Burse Brown ran a bus on the Port line and Ernest Wagner ran one on the Cape line, and
they were running cars on the main line then.
DOOKS: Now, what kind of cars were they running?
JACKSON: Well, regular passenger cars.
DOOKS: So, they were running trolleys and buses at the same time.?
JACKSON: Oh, Yes. I think they were. They didn’t run cars on the Port or Cape
after they put the buses on, just on the main line, and that soon petered out.
DOOKS: Now the main line went from where to where?
JACKSON: From Biddeford to Sanford.
DOOKS: Yes, that’s right because they discontinued the Cape line in ‘25, and they
discontinued the passenger service in ’27.
JACKSON: They ran the cars on the loop up Springvale after that.
DOOKS: That’s right.
JACKSON: And I think they run them down, after they took them off, from Biddeford
to Sanford, the main line. I think they ran cars down as far as, just below New Dam
somewhere, and picked up the help that went to Sanford. But, they run them quite a
while around the loop up there in Springvale and then put the buses on up there. And,
I think Greenwood was the master mechanic. He left here and went up there.
DOOKS: Now, when they discontinued the service in 1927 on the Biddeford to
Town House line, what did you do in 1927? September 15th was when they discontinued
the trolley, the passenger trolley service on that line, and, according to the reports that we
Page 29
have, the line was totally abandoned, and the track was torn up and the wire was taken
down in 1928 and 1929. So, from ‘28, ‘29, ‘30, ‘31, and ‘32, what did you do?
JACKSON: I worked for the Parson’s, the Parson’s Estate. I worked there for quite a
while before I went to the Navy Yard. I was working there when I went into the Navy
Yard. They had a farm here and they, Mrs. Dwight, and they had...... There was quite a
large family of them. They are a money family and I drove for them some and I worked on
the farm some and they kept six or seven men on the farm all the time.
DOOKS: So that was after you left York Utilities?
JACKSON: Yes, and then I went to work at the Navy Yard.
DOOKS: Now, when you left York Utilities, I thought from what you said earlier
tonight that you left York Utilities in 1932. Based on the fact you started in 1920 and
worked for them for 12 years, that brings it up to 1932. Is that correct?
JACKSON: That’s as near as I can make it out.
DOOKS: So, there is a slight discrepancy in the dates, from 1927 to 1932. Did you
work buses? The passenger electric trolley cars went out of service in 1927. So, if you
worked for York Utilities in 1932, do you remember what, or do we have our dates mixed
up?
JACKSON: My God, I’m trying to...
DOOKS: Did you repair diesel buses at all? Were they diesel or gasoline?
JACKSON: They were gasoline buses.
DOOKS: Gasoline buses.
JACKSON: Yes, real buses.
DOOKS: Real buses. So, they were what replaced the electric trolley cars?
JACKSON: They did. That was on the Cape and Port.
DOOKS: And the main line continued for another two years?
JACKSON: The main line continued.
DOOKS: For another two years.
JACKSON: I should say, yes. I can’t tell you for sure.
Page 30
DOOKS: Well, that’s according to our records. The main line continued for another two
years.
JACKSON: That sounds about right.
DOOKS: After the two years were up, which is now 1927, where did you go? What did
you do.
JACKSON: When I left the Navy, ah, when I left the...
DOOKS: Because if that is the case, then you only worked for the York Utilities and the
Atlantic Shoreline for only seven years.
JACKSON: Oh, I worked for them for longer than that.
DOOKS: Did you start earlier than 1920?
JACKSON: I was 16 when I went there to work
DOOKS: And you were born in what year?
JACKSON: 1904, the fifteenth of June.
DOOKS: So that’s the twentieth, right. June 15th, okay.
JACKSON: I thought it was around 12 years I worked for them. It seems like it, that
much, but when I quit them; when I got through with them, they were just about out of
business. That’s when I went over here and worked for the Parson’s Estate.
DOOKS: Did you repair any of the buses for a while?
JACKSON: Yes, I did. We had two yellow cab buses. We repaired them and they had
these old real buses. They were open buses, canvas tops and there was something wrong
with them all the time.
The smaller "Yellow Cab" buses serving Cape Porpoise and Dock
Square in 1925-1928, might have been like the one in this image.
Online Google Search screenshot.
The Jitney buses serving Sanford to Kennebunk, Town House,
and Biddeford were like this one. Photo from
the June 1950 (reissued January 1957), O. R. Cummings
publication, Atlantic Shore Line Railway - "The Sea View Route.
DOOKS: Were they harder to work on than trolleys?
JACKSON: They weren’t for me, because I worked on trolleys so much I knew just
about everything about them, you know, packing journals and stuff and you knew just
what to do, changing compressors or controllers or anything, but when the one-man cars
came out, I was lost. Because they had a fellow by the name of Gene Knights who came
there to work and he did all the, you see, then you had all valve work and stuff. It had to
be ground valve ground into them and everything and he did all that, and that kind of put
Page 31
the old fellows out of a job, you know, because the old one-man cars, the old two-man
cars were altogether different.
No. 88 is at the entrance to the Sanford Carbarn c 1940. No. 88 was
the last trolley in Maine to carry passengers during public operations.
It is a double-truck, Birney Safety car. Known as a one-man car.
It was acquired by the Seashore Trolley Museum in 1949. No. 88,
along with nine other Maine cars is listed in the National Register
of Historic Places. O. R. Cummings Collection 2009_2_7_074
Click Here: for the post on No. 88 being in the National Register of Historic Places
On the "Loop" next to the Sanford High School. On the main
line on the left is a double-truck Birney Safety car. On the siding
track on the right is No. 82, a single-truck Birney Safety car.
No. 82, along with nine other Maine cars is listed in the National
Register of Historic Places. O. R. Cummings Collection
c 1920 - 2009_2_5_009
Click Here: for the post on No. 88 being in the National Register of Historic Places
DOOKS: What kind of valves were these that they had to grind? These were on the
electric trolleys?
JACKSON: Yes, well, on the new one-man cars, in your air conditioning,....ah, in your
hand when your foot thing, there’s a valve in that. There are valves up in the top that you had
to polish. It was quite a job. A man’s got to know pretty well what he’s doing.
DOOKS: Those were called safety cars, weren’t’ they?
JACKSON: Yes. You’ve probably got cars that’s got them over there.
DOOKS: Yes.
JACKSON: You have to hold your foot on them as you take your hand off the controller.
DOOKS: So, you repaired the gasoline buses after you got done working with the
electric trolleys?
JACKSON: Yes.
DOOKS: So you stayed at Town House Car Barn doing that?
JACKSON: That’s right.
DOOKS: So, they repaired them down there, then?
JACKSON: They sent them down from Sanford, down there to be repaired. They run
buses up to Sanford some and they sent them down there to repair.
DOOKS: Well, okay. Thank you. You mentioned they ran the electric express (cars)
afterward. Did they run the electric express (cars) for a while after they got done passenger
service?
JACKSON: No, I don’t think they did. They ran the freight motors that hauled freight. I
think they ran them a little bit afterward, and that was it.
DOOKS: Now, would that be the Cape Porpoise over to Sanford?
JACKSON: No, I think they ran just in Sanford and I think they did come to
Kennebunk, Goodall’s there. You know, hauled stuff to Goodall’s.
DOOKS: Now would you repair those at Town House?
Page 32 - Final Page
JACKSON: Yes, they were repaired at the Town House.
DOOKS: Or did they tear up all the tracks as soon as they got done running the passenger
service?
JACKSON: They tore it up, most of it, yes.
DOOKS Okay! (END OF CASSETTE)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We continue the restoration work on the 1912 Narcissus, the only surviving high-speed, luxury interurban coach of the Portland-Lewiston Interurban.
Being more than a century old, the stately, "Elegant Ride,"
Narcissus, is a gem. This shimmering precious stone of Maine transportation history is brilliantly resplendent as it emanates so many elements of history, including;
time, places, people, and events, that it was coupled to, that when just a smattering of its seemingly innumerable stories are shared, the contents captivates, fascinates, then generates, interest to learn more 🙋. The majestic
Narcissus is listed in the
National Register of Historic Places.
Please consider joining the epic journey to complete the Narcissus Project by making a donation today!
The restoration of this majestic icon of Maine's electric railway history is but one in a series of captivating stories containing an abundance of incredible coalition of narratives.
Click Here: History-Related Posts - Narcissus and Portland-Lewiston Interurban
The Narcissus is featured in the national Gold Award-winning novel, Teddy Roosevelt, Millie, and the Elegant Ride. The "Elegant Ride" is the Narcissus. Theodore Roosevelt was a passenger on the Narcissus on August 18, 1914, between Lewiston and Portland, Maine, while campaigning for the Progressive Party candidates.
Click Here: Bookstores and Businesses promoting the
Narcissus Project
Independent book publisher, Phil Morse, holding
the Gold Book Award Winner plaque for
the Middle Reader category for The Eric
Hoffer Book Award. Congratulations to
award-winning Maine author,
Jean M. Flahive
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